MX-5 OC Forum

@Gerryn. Not sure I follow you. If a car club gets too political there is a danger that it will lose members. For example, if this club called on all its members to vote labour at the next general election, many of the non-labour voters would be unhappy. That could lead to a downward spiral of falling membership numbers = reduced income from subscriptions = less money to spend on events and stuff = even more steeply falling membership numbers.

A similar thing will happen with the fair fuel prices campaign. Not everyone agrees with you that it is an undisputed good thing. I find their arguments to be flaky and their motivation to be more than a little suspicious. I didn't buy an MX-5 and join the owners club to be associated with campaigns like this. Whether you like it or not, the fair fuel prices campaign is political.

You are quite right that committees are often strongly influenced by those who are prepared to speak out. But you may find that even the quiet ones on the committee won't like what you are suggesting. And for very good reason.

Gerryn:

My heart bleeds for anyone who has to use the train to get to work, season tickets are now apparently costing in the thousands per year

I live just outside Preston, Lancs. A couple of weeks ago I had to go on a course in Manchester. The course lasted for four days. Four days return from Preston to Manchester was nearly £80! It was almost like those trains you see in India and the like, we were squashed in like sardines and itv was late leaving 3 out of four days,. 50% of the passengers didn't even get a seat! Same coming home as well. Last year I was in Holland with work and had the pleasure of using their public transport system. I got on a train (double decker) in the north of the country headed for Amsterdam airport. The time table informed me that the train would arrive at 16:13. We set off for the journey. AT 16:15 EXACTLY the train arrived at the airport. I got off the train and got on an escalator that took me to departures. We have a lot to learn.

Gerryn:

nickbee:

This thread is indeed about Fair Fuel Prices, which as you can see from their letter, is about politics.  No more politics means no more thread, which is a bit of a paradox given that you don't want it closed.

 

It's about Taxation no matter which party happens to be in power. 

If you read all of this thread, you will perhaps see where I was coming from,

For you to get that email - then I assume you are a supporter, which your post seems to indicate you aren't - now that's a paradox - - - - - !

I think the definition of political has been made clear in the last couple of pages, so I won't reiterate what other have said. 

Just to clarify though, I have read all of this thread, I've been posting on it since page 2 and no, I'm not a supporter.  The letter I quoted was taken from the very first post.  If you'd read all of the thread, etc...

Gary Beale:

Gerryn:

My heart bleeds for anyone who has to use the train to get to work, season tickets are now apparently costing in the thousands per year

I live just outside Preston, Lancs. A couple of weeks ago I had to go on a course in Manchester. The course lasted for four days. Four days return from Preston to Manchester was nearly £80!

The pleasure of standing on trains costs me £4020 a year, to be exact.  Plus parking at the station, which is in the region of £1300.

[joke] I'm not voting tory again. [/joke]

Once:

@AT - the advice given by the FBU was directed at the public. Sure, you can apply for permission to store larger quantities of fuel, but no-one is really going to do that for a domestic house in time for a fuel shortage.

So as far as I can see, the advice they gave was correct - in the context in which they were giving it.

 

They were out to score points in support of their Comrades. They know full well they could have phrased their comment in a different way. The minister said store a bit of extra fuel in a jerrycan, in the garage. The Union somehow used to attack the government for suggesting people ought to store multiple containers of petrol in the home. They used a classic strawman argument; Minister says "a bit of extra fuel in a jerry can in the garage is a sensible precaution to take", militant union leader replies "It is already against the law to store more than 10 litres of petrol in two five-litre plastic containers in the home" (minister didn't actually say people ought to stockpile mulitple containers). Of course, its interesting that no one is accusing Wrack for suggesting that you CAN store less than 10 liters in your living room (the limit for petrol stored in a home is 0 liters, not 10 liters, so the Union was wrong in their advice).

The suggestion from the minister was also technically correct, if missing all the caveats, but no less incorrect than a fireman to suggest you can legally store 10 liters of petrol inside your home. Of course, there's no accounting for idiots who pour petrol in a kitchen over a lit stove (in another thread, its suggested these regulations only really apply to idiots and fools). That sort of accident probably happens every day, in any given year, but will no doubt be seized upon by people with an axe to grind, who were worried about a recent by-election result.

I have been advised that the Committee decided to approve the article for publication in STHT - it has been suggested apparently that it appears under 'Letter to the Editor' in the next edition. Also - it will state "this is with the usual club disclaimer - that the views expressed are those of the writer, not the Club " which is plain enough for those dissenters on previous posts. The article also makes the same point in different words.

Anyone who wishes to reply to this can do so - in STHT, but bear in mind your reply will come two months after the article appears, which to me would make it pointless. YMMV - - - -

P.S. - I didn't plan it that way, if it sounds like a fait accompli.

It will be interesting to see what reaction this gets from the membership.

I'm not too bothered about a letter to the editor. As far as I can see, anyone can write a letter. And, as you say, it's clear that it's the view of the writer and not the club as a whole.

And anyway it looks as if the subject has fizzled out.

 Here Here

 Not Fizzled out from my end  I will still give my support for Gerry.and the FFC look forward to the April STHT will make good reading me thinks not going to comment on any one can write a letter !

Alan

 I agree with alot of the points made in protest of the fair fuel prices argument.

But...

Although alot of the points made are correct, that the government (for the most part) spends the money they demand from us on helpful things and that this in itself is necisary (and not on 4th homes and moats), i beleive it to be short sited.

taxes and prices on goods have done nothing but climb for decades. proof that this method isnt solving anything long term.

although in the short term and if only done in a small way a dropping of taxes and prices would negatively effect the country, its inhabitants and the economy, i beleive in the long term it would put an end to this "downward spiral".

think of it as a farmer (the government) having having a feild (the people) which he uses to grow a crop (taxable income).

if one year a farmer churns out two harvests but is struggling to brake even, the next year he does three, and the next year four. This proves too much for the feilds rescources, nutrients and water to deal with. causing their to be less crops in each harvest. and of a lower standard.

now apply that to people. keep taxing them, making life more expensive and this breeds poverty, depression, alcohol and drug abuse, lacking educations (not in all cases i understand but generally). they will stop working. stop being productive. stop producing their share of "crop". and start COSTING instead, being a drain on rescources. Making things even more expensive.

You are essentially strangling their rescource. trying to eek out every last penny now with no consideration what this will mean to its sustainability. this can only last so long untill there is none left

alternatively make things cheaper, although in the short term things will likely get worse, and they can buy things. they can afford to go to work. they can afford holidays and they can afford to pay tax. More importantly people WANT to work. linked specifically to the case in point, people take day trips, buy less economical cars because they are fun, the amount of tax earnt on each litre goes down  but the amount of fuel being bought increases (though this itself has disadvantages in itself i understand but thats another argument) and although the tax on that is less, there is more being sold = more money.

Economy essentially isnt the amount of money a country has but the speed and amount that that money changes hands. the way it flows through different industries and rescources. at the moment no one wants to spend because they cant afford to. in the long run that can ONLY be bad.

Overall the FFUK argument though valid in some respects has utterly failed to achieve anything. I was a supporter of their campaign but their resistance to actually doing anything has left many people disappointed and let down. As a campaign group they are effectively finished. So if we must put up with such high fuel prices the focus should switch to focus on getting better value from this such as improving the roads which we have paid. I appreciate that it will be impossible to have every road billiard board smooth and perfect but serious questions need to be addresed as to how contractors are chosen and why the quality of repairs is so poor. I'm sure everyone would agree that better value needs to looked at, I cannot imagine that anyone actually enjoys driving on our decrepid and third world roads?

This is probably an argument to post elsewhere but I just felt I had to pass comment given the appalling roads I witnessed earlier today.

"Utterley failed?" They managed to stop the fuel price escalator earlier this year (would have added .03P to the tax) and with the support of well over 100 MP's - including our Tory MP . Granted they failed to stop the latest tax increase, but that's because there wern't enough supporters to get the message across, that's why they are asking for more. Not quite sure where you were at the time?

One thing is clear, as Once said earlier on this thread, motorists are continuing to pay whatever extortinate prices are charged at the pump, and as he also pointed out, while they do that, it isn't conducive for the Chancellor to think about decreasing the tax. As a believer in some conspiracy theories, it wouldn't suprise me if this wasn't engineered to produce such a result, but we can't blame Fair Fuel for that - however, while prices are high, so don't forget is the VAT - which increases as the base cost increases. The Chanellor must be rubbing his hands in glee methinks.

We can't force people to stop buying petrol - or deisel, they have to get to work somehow, and as some have also pointed out, the cost of rail travel is astronomic, which forces people to seek alternative means to get to work.  However, if enough people get behind the campaign, then perhaps we can convince the Chancellor that his tax is doing more harm than good. None of this is helped by the fact they've just decided to give away 9 billion to struggling nations (via the World bank) - but aren't we already in that league? Taxation (in any form) is strangling growth - essential we are told, as we have an enormous debt to repay - - -  HUH? We borrowed vast sums to pay our way, now we're loaning some of it to the World Bank - - - HUH?

Expect more political retorts - - - -

Well said Gerryn.

Some of us are getting angry  

...i'll leave it at that.

I feel that the Gov't plays a "wait, wait, wait" game. My opinion is that they think, that if they, wait, diffuse, or play a deflect strategy , then, the objection, whatever it may be, will go away. I THINK NOT!

Gary, good post, but the trouble is that most sheeple in this country just roll over and take it. The only one time that the nation stood together and got a change was the poll tax marches. People power did force a change then. Alas, it was soon forgotten and average Joe Soap gets now gets shafted on everything.

When sheeple understand thats its not a red or blue vote that matters- they're all the same (corrupt) - and we actually get a Common Sense Party, then, and only then, will things get fairer and better. The wealth at the top needs to filter down to everyone so that we all benefit.  I won't hold my breath.