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Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

Last post Thu, Jun 28 2012 14:11 by AT. 20 replies.
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  • Mon, May 21 2012 12:29
    • nealemh
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    Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

     Just released on BBC news channel :-

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18146326

    Neale

    Mk2.5 2002 1.6
  • Mon, May 21 2012 12:47 In reply to
    • SB
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    • Plymouth
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

     great, next barn find ill zip of for a tour Hug.

    Historic tax on a rolling 20 years is what i want. Mine would qualify next year. cant see it happening any time soon.

    1992 S Special

    1986 Astra limited edition

    1967 Lambretta SX150

    1964 Morris Minor.....i should'nt have sold her!
  • Mon, May 21 2012 13:26 In reply to

    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

    SB:

    Historic tax on a rolling 20 years is what i want. 

    I Agree even though it'll never happen.

     

    Early 1990 1.6 Eunos classic red. modestly improved with Induction kit.
    4:1 Stainless manifold & VERY LOUD stainless twin pipe system.
    Black Racing rims (Watanabe lookalike). LOUD Klaxon as anti sheep device in Wales
    Member of the RED Division, Living by the Bull & Bladder
    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/pappadamjoe/
  • Mon, May 21 2012 19:12 In reply to
    • DonT
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    • Aldridge
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

    Here here

    1995 MX-5 1.8 iS in Classic Red
    Owned since April 2002
    BMW 320D Coupe
    Nurburgring & Stelvio Pass
  • Mon, May 21 2012 19:26 In reply to
    • BG
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    • Purley
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

    DonT:

    Here here

    and one more here too Thumbs up

    1992 mk1 Crystal white, KYB adjustable dampers with trim springs Cobalt 3 point strut brace and cat back system. K&N panel filter,Magnecor plug leads. Green stuff all round,s/steel braided brake lines.Lots of TLC
  • Mon, May 21 2012 19:30 In reply to
    • Phil H
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

     Watch the price of pre 60's vehicles rise. I will have to dig out my old 1956 BSA C11G and give it a run round. Not been on the road for years so will be nice.

    Regards, Phil.

    1991 "J" Ltd
    1994 "V" Spec
  • Mon, May 21 2012 19:57 In reply to
    • peleton72
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

    You all had the chance to buy the Stag I had advertised a few weeks ago Wink

    MX-5 Owner's Club Motorsport Co-ordinator / Mission Motorsport Development Manager: jon dot earp at mx5oc.co.uk
    '95 Mk 1 1800cc, plus a few minor, subtle changes...
    The only one at the Blyton weekend who didn't break a record!
  • Mon, May 21 2012 20:25 In reply to
    • Phil H
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

     Unfortunately not pre 60's Jon.Great colour though, looks nice but having spent much time underneath a workmates Stag many moons ago I do not relish ever owning one, sorry. 

    Regards, Phil.

    1991 "J" Ltd
    1994 "V" Spec
  • Mon, May 21 2012 23:58 In reply to
    • AT
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

    I don't think there are any actual "cheap" pre-1960 cars left anyhow. I doubt values will be affected at all; no one is going to look for a 1959 Wyvern just to save £50 a year on the MOT.

     

    A basket case 1959 Mini recently fetched £40k at auction. It will never be restored, if anyone is wondering. Pretty sweet profit, considering it cost the owner £11k a year earlier, and everyone thought he was mad.

     

    http://www.motoring.co.uk/car-news/oldest-unrestored-mini-fetches-40-000-at-auction_43317

    http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/15/oldest-unrestored-mini-up-for-sale/

     

  • Tue, May 22 2012 16:10 In reply to
    • Martin Young
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    • Hemel Hempstead
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

     My first thought was a Morris Minor Traveller or convertible isn't a bad way to get around.  Though maybe not with the original A series engine.

     

    My second thought was this is a dumb idea as it's carte blanche for crappy amateurish "restoration" deathtraps to take to the road.  The statistic given in the linked article explains that the accident rate with these classics is much lower than the proportion of all cars they represent.  That's a meaningless statistic.  They must get driven far, far fewer miles than newish cars, and they don't get driven by reckless teenagers.  I'd like to know how the accident rate per mile driven, by drivers of a similar age compares for these cars.

    '94 Roadster + MP62
  • Tue, May 22 2012 19:52 In reply to

    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

     Thumbs up Second that Martin. The Morris Minor Centre used to slot in...I think Downtown spec1275GT mills in them for a  wee bit extra poke. Mind you, a solid rear axle and cart springs probaby limit things in the power dept!

  • Tue, May 22 2012 20:30 In reply to
    • AT
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

    Martin Young:

     My first thought was a Morris Minor Traveller or convertible isn't a bad way to get around.  Though maybe not with the original A series engine.

     

    Its a terrible way to get around on a 15k commuteit has poor emissions, poor economy.

     

    My second thought was this is a dumb idea as it's carte blanche for crappy amateurish "restoration" deathtraps to take to the road.  The statistic given in the linked article explains that the accident rate with these classics is much lower than the proportion of all cars they represent.  That's a meaningless statistic.  They must get driven far, far fewer miles than newish cars, and they don't get driven by reckless teenagers.  I'd like to know how the accident rate per mile driven, by drivers of a similar age compares for these cars.

    Such alarmist predictions by Statists haven't proven true in the US. Many States are now abolishing Inspections, because they are a waste of time. Canada only has an inspection when vehicles change ownership. Instead, draconian penalties are imposed on irresponsible motorists who cause death and injury through their lack of attention to their vehicles. Its called taking personal responsibility for your actions. Instead, we have motorists happy to buy worn out tyres taken off some Ukrainian hack because they'll pass the MOT. That these tyres are unsafe doesn't seem to occur to them.

     

    In New Jersey, emissions inspections are still retained, and cars that have been tested, get a tag sticker. Tag stickers are visible to the police, and if its expired, you get a pull over, and then heavy fines for presenting an unsafe car.

     

    Your call for alternative stats is also meaningless; 50 year old cars do not have ABS, traction control, HID lighting, stability control, emissions montioring equipment, on-board diagnostics. Few even have disc brakes. Any difference in the accident statistics could also be explained by either the capabilities of the car, or the health of the driver (older drivers; statistically more likely to die at the wheel).

     

    Yes, they are not driven by reckless teenagers. Instead, cars as old as this, are driven by mature drivers who are interested in protecting their investment. They will likely maintain their cars to a far higher standard than most of the members of this forum. They are unlikely to throw on as much cheap, counterfeit parts as many MX5 owners seem to do. They are unlikely to modify their cars beyond the design limits, as many MX5 owners seem to do (eg. uprating power by 50% while leaving the brakes and suspension untouched). They don't need a Government trained busy body telling them, for £50, that their car is in good mechanical order. It is nothing more than a tax imposed on people. I would also remind you having a valid MOT certificate from 6 months earlier is no defence when your bald tyres wipe out a bus queue. You'd be an idiot to buy a 50 year old car, with 2 months ticket left on it, and not to get a proper inspection done by an engineer.

     

    I'm all for a complete abolition of the MOT, and getting serious with the people who take death traps on the road; get in an accident, and you will go to jail, and your family will be living in a cardboard box, after you are relieved of most of your possessions as compensation for your irresponsibility. A properly maintained car will never fail the MOT, because any faults will be detected before the MOT and rectified. Cars are failing MOTs because people don't maintain them. This is never going to happen, because British people love the Nanny State too much, because the Nanny State relieves you of the need to think for yourself.

    And MOTs are no indicator of the safety of a car, because they are too inconsistant. I note people have found, in the computerised MOTs, indication of an advisory being included one year, but then not the next, despite no rectification work being carried out. In the end, a MOT is still awarded on the say so of an individual, which means the system is open to corruption. And those that are more likely to corrupt inspectors are people more likely to drive death traps, unlike ordinary motorists. And as garage rates increase, either the fee will have to go up even more, or more garages will feel more inclined to cut corners during the test, because that car in for the £50 MOT is just taking up space that could earn the garage £100 per hour.

    And of course, owners are still free to get their cars MOT'd, and they may well wish to do that still, if having a full set of MOT's is the only way they can "prove" to a buyer that the car has been maintained to an appropriate standard. And many buyers, just like now, if buying a vintage car, will stand up the cost of a MOT test. I suspect though, if classic owners want some sort of mechanical inspection to make sure they didn't miss anything, they'd rather pay their specialist classic mechanical engineer £50 to carry out an inspection thats more relevant to their particular car; ie someone who doesn't waste time checking bits that never give any problems, but more marque-specific issues (ie. seperate chassis vehicles; no need to check the whole body, just the box sections and outriggers)

    Maybe MOTs ought to cost a nominal fee, but if your car fails, you are automatically fined, so that only the negligant are seriously out of pocket. I'd set the fine at £200 per fault detected.

     

    You could actually submit a FOI request and find out what are the MOT failure rates on pre-1960 cars; the failure rate might actually be less than the failure rate of any car with a MOT that is subject to a spot check. If it is, the MOT is pointless, because the risk of that car causing an accident due to mechanical failure is less than that of a newer car with a MOT. The only reference I have found is in a Penning's statement, which mentioned a less than 10% failure rate.

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/statements/penning-20111103/

    Of course, that doesn't indicate what those 10% of cars are failing on, though there is a clear demarcation between pre-1960 (<10% fail) and post-1960 (>30% fail).  What pre-1960 cars are failing on would be interesting, as it could be on non-critical items (crack on windscreen, a wiper blade needing replacing, beam off a bit).  I'd imagine for post-1960 cars, the curve is bell shaped, with the peak occurring with cars that of a banger age (10-20 years old), with newer cars less likely to fail, and much older cars less likely to fail due to increased owner maintenance. And note, the MOT will still be required for first registration of a car; so no danger of unsafe recently imported classics coming onto the road.

    This file:

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/2009-10%20Effectiveness%20Report%20Index%20and%20Summary.pdf

     

    Contains VOSA data for prohibitions against cars and light vehicles after roadside inspections (basically, MOT fails). Over 50% of cars stopped were prohibited, mostly for bodywork/glass defects; there could be an element of bias (ie. obviously defective cars are pulled over), but all the mobile checks I have seen seem to just wave over cars at random. Thats stunning, because the MOT fail rate is about 30%.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/opensecrets/2010/01/mot_failure_rates_released.html

    This file contains the rationale for considering the exemption:

    http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2011-27/ia.pdf

    Buried in this is a lot of statistical analysis; worth a read.

    The regulations already exempt many classes of vehicles from the MOT; certain electric vehicles for instance. If these can be exempted, then other vehicles could. If other vehicles cannot be exempted, then what makes your Grandad's mobility scooter so important? The basis for why other vehicles are exempted is not because, for instance, Chinese made mobility scooters are inherantly the safest things ever built, but because a MOT would be out of all proportion to the actual impact on accident statistics. That appears to be the position taken by the government; the feeling that older classic cars don't cause an awful lot of accidents. And the data bears that suppostion out.

     

    MOTs are supposed to ensure cars are safe on the road. No it doesn't. It doesn't do one thing, except relieve a motorist of £50, which could have been put to paying for that new windscreen, or new tyres.

  • Fri, May 25 2012 14:54 In reply to
    • Martin Young
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    • Hemel Hempstead
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

     Although I'm somewhat of an admirer of the US's culture of individual responsibility, changing the MOT system won't change British culture.  I'm not sure how we'd get from where we are now to where you'd like us to be.

    Even today when people increasingly buy cars with inclusive serviving deals, the proportion of cars which fail their first MOT is ridiculous (something like 30% IIRC).  So while in principle, "a properly maintained car will never fail", the reality seems to be different.  While I agree that most very old cars are thoroughly maintained by enthusiastic owners for whom the MOT is usually an unneccesary expense, it's not true for all.  And I don't agree that MOTs are no indicator of safety.  Certainly a lot of pass/advisory/fail decisions are judgement calls, but they're being made by (generally) competent people so while some inconsitency is inevitable, that doesn't mean they have no value. 

    (Aside - I've been caught out myself like this - last MOT I got a fail on front discs, bought replacements, swapped them and got a pass but I made sure to measure the thickness of the old ones and they were only 75% worn.  I rather resented the small but unnecessary expense just because the tester didn't like the look of my discs but on balance I do use the inspection as a useful professional second opinion on the state of my car so I just shrugged it off.)

    Anyway, having followed the link to Mike Penning's statement, I think on balance there's something in your idea of abolishing testing and fining failure instead.  Not perhaps £200 for each blown bulbSmile, but if owners of pre-1960* cars could make a SORN-like declaration that they were taking on personal responsibility for the roadworthiness of their cars, with knowledge of penalties for failure to maintain the car in safe condition, then that would give the enthusiasts the opt out they deserve.  It might even be extended to post 1960 cars, with the caveat being that your insurer would have to be informed that you were taking on the responsibility for keeping your car safe.  The effect on premiums might be an effective way of policing who can or can't avoid the MOT.  We already rely on insurers to 'police' who gets to drive powerful cars, maybe the free market can help with this too.

    * Actually, it would make sense for this to apply to any 50+ year old car, rolling forward each year.  It looks as if this comes from a Euro regulation that specifies 1960 though, so that may not be an option.

    '94 Roadster + MP62
  • Fri, May 25 2012 16:09 In reply to
    • AT
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

    Martin Young:
    Even today when people increasingly buy cars with inclusive serviving deals, the proportion of cars which fail their first MOT is ridiculous (something like 30% IIRC).  So while in principle, "a properly maintained car will never fail", the reality seems to be different.

     

    The inclusive servicing costs don't include free tyres, which is one of the more common reasons why these cars fail. Maybe you ought to think about the sort of servicing one gets when one is not actually footing the bill.

     

    Opponants don't like this measure because they think it will increase the risk to them; I don't think it will.

     

    Ireland introduced the NCT about 10-15 years ago, mainly because of an EU directive. Ireland followed the GB model, rather than the Northern Ireland model, of allowing inspections to be carried out by licenced private garages. The received wisdom from the Irish was not so much a sudden discovery that it took a NCT to tell them their cars were unsafe, but a resentment that cars were being failed for some of the same trivial reasons a car would fail the MOT here. People in Ireland have also pointed out that prior to the NCT, the insurance industry was not in the slightest interested in the mechanical condition of customer's cars; i.e. there were more important causes of claims.

     

    Of course mechanical faults can cause an accident, but such a fault or failure can occur at any time. If the MOT isn't picking up all these faults, then that would drive one to call for ever increasing frequency of test; if not once a year, why not twice or thrice? Or, if there is a feeling that failures are something you intrinsically associate with older cars, why not just ban, say, all cars over 15 years old?

    Like all of these things, these decisions need to be made on the basis of objective risk analysis, not on the basis of Red Top scare mongering. Underlying some of the opposition I suspect is an innate jealousy of people who own what are in general fine cars.

    The government consultation considered a range of cut-off dates. The EU might have selected one of them, but I suspect it was not for arbitrary reasons.

    Owners (or keepers) of any car already have to assume responsibility for the condition of their cars at all times; its called the Law. Getting people to sign declarations would indicate to people who don't sign such declarations that they don't have to look after their cars.

     

    If you need professional opinion on your car, there are other ways besides paying for a generic MOT; most garages would be happy to give you an appraisal of your car. Some might charge for this service in its own right (5Speed charged me £45 to give my car the once over, as I was deciding whether to get rid of it or keep it, after the replacement engine was fitted); and you can get the engineer to look at specific points of interest (ie. do you really need to pay someone to tell you your tyres are bald, or that you have a chip on the windscreen). Other garages will include a comprehensive list of inspection points at part of a £100 service.

     

    You can't necessarily have a rolling limit; cars do last longer these days. Plus, car ownership has increased over the years. Pre-1960 cars represent a small part of the car fleet. pre-1961 cdars represent a bit more, and pre-1962 a bit more still, and so forth; at one point, you might get a big jump, assocated with maybe the election of Wilson (when suddenly people started buying more cars, instead of trying to cram a family of 6 into a Mini). The risk calculation changes. If you maintain the cut-off at 1960, you can be fairly sure that [1] the numbers of pre-1960 cars isn't going to change all that much. They are not subject to scrapping by the same rules as more modern cars [2] As the number of cars on the road is expected to increase, the proportion of these cars is expected to ever decrease, thus lowering the risk of being involved in a crash caused by a A35 loosing its front wheel.

     

  • Fri, May 25 2012 17:40 In reply to
    • Martin Young
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      Thu, Oct 23 2008
    • Hemel Hempstead
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    Re: Pre 1960 Classic Cars to be exempt from MOT

    AT:

    Martin Young:
    Even today when people increasingly buy cars with inclusive serviving deals, the proportion of cars which fail their first MOT is ridiculous (something like 30% IIRC).  So while in principle, "a properly maintained car will never fail", the reality seems to be different.

     

    The inclusive servicing costs don't include free tyres, which is one of the more common reasons why these cars fail. Maybe you ought to think about the sort of servicing one gets when one is not actually footing the bill.

     

    OK, I'll think about it.

    <thinks>

    I think they'd do the minimum of work at their own expense but be more than happy to tell the owner they need new tyres, since they'd actually get paid for those.

    '94 Roadster + MP62
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