MX-5 OC Forum

Hi Everyone,

Chris & Anita suggested we put this on the forum.

We have been in discussion with Roger Mead the Club Chairman regarding the confusion about the number of cars that can take part on our drives. He remembers the discussion at the National AGM about 10 cars, when large groups go on a drive it was suggested that these should be broken down into smaller groups of no more than 10 cars (the theoretical number of cars that can get through traffic lights).

Thank you! 

It is great news to hear that this has now been resolved. Perhaps now we can revert to such runs at the National Rallies i.e. groups of up to 10 cars on a common (untimed, non-competitive) run.

Speaking personally this has been one of the best elements of club membership for us.

Thanks again

 Nigel,

I think you need to refer to the official guidance issued by the CAO who are authorised to administer the Regulations on behalf of the DOT.  Chris and Anita already have copies. The guidance is very clear: and leaves no room for confusion-

http://msa45.dev.fishertechnology.co.uk/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/compsandtrials/Guide_to_regulations.pdf

They also have issued guidance on Treasure Hunts as well:-

http://msa45.dev.fishertechnology.co.uk/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/compsandtrials/THUNTS.pdf

All motoring events run on the public highway are subject to the Regulations and the limit to the number of cars participating unless they have a certificate of exemption/authorisation.  I am not sure where you have got the figures of 20 and 50 cars from as the Regulations refer to events with 12 cars or more.  Car Clubs can obtain certificates of exemption by affiliating themselves to the MSA. As an example there is a good guide to how it all works in practice issued by the Riley Owners Club who belong to the MSA:-

http://www.rileyregister.com/MSAGuide_web_.pdf

Members can make up their own minds from seeing the official documentation and facts above. Touring Assemblies can legally be run with more than 12 cars by obtaining a certificate of exemption. I don't think relying on what has been done in the past would be any defence in law.  Contravening the Regulations leaves the organiser and all participants of an event committing an offence under the RTA if you refer to the Regulations themselves. 

The other important issue is the potential for the organisers of runs to be subject of third party claims.  The advantage of the OC being MSA affiliated is that event organisers are automatically covered by the MSA PLI.  Hopefully the OC will affiliate itself  to the MSA in the near future to give event organisers the benefit of this protection. 

To be honest Joanna and I have been very disappointed with the attitude of some SW members towards us and this issue at our meets. We were simply reporting back the OC stance set out at last year's AC meeting limiting runs to 10 cars until they had reviewed the situation.

Derek

Derek,

I have sent you a PM

Nigel

 We are doing a run on 22/1/2012 . As it is not a trial nor a competition . Would you explain to me and many others , why we should need to obtain the permission of any organisation to drive on public roads .

Regards ,

JJ.

The Club has put a lot of time and effort in to clarifying all this recently for the benefit of the Area Coordinators and will be firming up on some guidance shortly.  I have asked Jon Smith who has had direct contact with the MSA to comment here.  What we are trying to be is consistent across the Club.. 

This subject was `done to death` recently on here, the legislation does not cover what the MX5OC does as regards `runs` they are totally non-competitive run to common traffic regs, not even a treasure-hunt and certainly not a `12 car event` or `road-rally` which is what the legislation is designed to deal with......

Dr. Eunos

Hi All,

YES, we are joining the MSA. By doing so we increase our current Club Insurance to £30million, ie the amount the MSA insures the F1 for!

Clearly this is well in excess for the average Club run which is covered under our current Insurance policy. However for larger Club events - such as, but not retricted to, the Fish &Chip runs - where we expect to see >100 cars we will apply for an MSA waiver for the insurance cover as above. The waiver allows us to organise touring assemblies, within the rules and regs laid down by the MSA but without having to worry about all the red-tape attached to say, organising a rally, or road section sprint. For normal Area runs this IS NOT required.

The Member's posts above, whilst well-intentioned and accurate within its own right, could lead to some confusion. For clarity.

1. MX-5 Owners Club 'Touring assemblies' DO NOT require MSA approval or an MSA waiver. We as a Club have simply chosen to apply for them for certain occasions.

2. As a Club I recommended that we apply for an MSA waiver (a cost is attached to each waiver, paid for by the Club) when we expect to see over 50 cars at any particular gathering. That is not to say that organisers are not covered above this number, they are (under the Clubs current insurance) so there is no need to panic if 51 cars turn up on a Sunday morning! It is purely to give us additional cover within the MSA's own touring assembly guidlines.

3. Cars should still aim to depart in 'packets' of <10. This is simply good road manners and etiquette. If these 'packets' get separated, due to weight of traffic , lights etc, then so-be-it.

4. Drivers are still 100% responsible for their road manners whilst enjoying a touring assembly; there is no excuse for jumping a red light, or squeezing out of a junction in order to stay in sight of the car in front.

5. MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL: there cannot be any prize, or bonus attached to a touring assembly. Nor a 'target' time to reach a checkpoint or the end. This is where our Club get-togethers differ from many 'competition' tours where the 'competitors' recieve time bonuses etc. All organisers need to do is publish a route (this can simply be 'meet at Tesco car park at 8 o'clock, drive to the South Coast' or a full-blown tulip diagram map), then let people depart in small groups, it really is as simple as that.

Essentially, Club Members - and those organising the touring assemblies - should not worry.

NO TIMING, NO BONUS, NO TARGET, NO PRIZE = NO WORRIES

Thanks for clearing that up Jon, my experience of being affilliated to the MSA is that very little if anything is for `free` with them, what is the cost to the club for an individual `waiver of permit` for such non-events?

Would have thought that an `MX5 Motorsport Club` might benefit from MSA affiliation but not necassarily an ordinary owners club as such?

Dr. Eunos

20 quid mate, hence having to be realistic about when and where to employ them.

We could have gone down the 'better get a waiver for every drive' route; 32 areas, two events a month in the summer months = a rediculous cost, and workload.

Hence the reality check. This way Members get peace of mind whilst we're seen to be employing sensible procedures by anyone looking into the Club from the outside.

To my mind this is like Health & Safety legislation: common sense but there's always one loon who decides that we should all be walking round in bubble wrap

Now I see that makes sense on larger runs, autotests, gymkhana etc mate, am guessing that once we are fully affiliated them being a full paid-up member of the MX5OC will then be good enough if any members are applying for any form of MSA competition licence, ie. they dont need to belong to any other motor club to be able to apply for one?

If so, good call

Dr. Eunos

Yup

Cool! And it is to the benefit of non-competing members also with regard to liability, most excellent

My only suggestion here is that when a waiver of permit is applied to a large run or whatever, then participating members could make a small contribution to cover the cost of the permit based on the number of participants taking part in that said activity?

Taff

taff eunos:

My only suggestion here is that when a waiver of permit is applied to a large run or whatever, then participating members could make a small contribution to cover the cost of the permit based on the number of participants taking part in that said activity?

That's what the memberships are for IMHO. If we need to pay extra to go on 'runs', then why join the club? There are so few events that would require the waiver anyway. Those events often end up with a good few pages in STHT and plenty of pics on the forum, so they bring a lot of activity to other parts of the club.

I think the club has to consider the bigger picture and not alienate the large proportion of non-competing members who should not be asked to subsidise a smaller minority thats all. Make it self funding and everybody will be happy?

Dr. Eunos